Stealth Fighter as superweapon?

It isn't anything serious... just a discussion... well, discussion rolled in with a suggestion.

I was watching documentary on these little awesome fighters. They are AMAZING... and with that amazement... ridiculous cost. It seems like stealth fighters are pretty small in number and pretty high in cost... not to mention development. Just for numbers sake... the total number of the latest model of Euro Fighter (European stealth fighter... although less stealthy than versatile fighter) ever made thus far is 270 units... give or take tens. That's small... considering how many nations that EU has. It is also good to note that Korea has plans for purchasing 60 stealth fighters... apparently spending 8.2조원, which is 8.2 billion dollars. And that is largest purchase deal in Korean history.

Talk about WOW. The cost of these critters are monstrous! And imagine developing one for it. Not to mention... only three LEGITIMATE factions are capable of its construction... the US, EU, and Russia. China has yet revealed its... so for all we know it isn't even legit... and Japs are still developing theirs. Only the biggest and the baddest military power (or economic power in the case of EU... but Europe has history of militarization) was able to develop theirs...

Now, I KNOW that stealth SUBMARINE (so beloved SS the Naughty One ^^) is a superweapon. That has never been the question... adding stealth to even stealthier sumarines. Not to mention my new submersible aircraft carrier is another one... with stealth capability. But I did not think about this until now... stealth technology in general should not be underestimated...


So I wanted to know... in the new Tiberiam, should we set stealth fighters as superweapon?

Oh and my definition of superweapon for Tiberiam is this:

a weapon that MUST be developed IN ROLEPLAY. A weapon system that takes awhile to develop and long time to construct. It isn't a weapon that you start out with. It gives HUGE advantage to your adversaries, and it is a fearful symbol of your military technology and power. The technology itself is much-guarded secret, and it is envy of nations.

Many of our current superweapons fits this bill. (Nuclear weapons, Chemical weapons, Stealth subs, etc.) I also think that Stealth Fighters fits this bill as well. Another reason why I wanted to set this is so that people don't start out with stealth bombers... (I don't want people to go... "oh I have stealth tech on ALL my bombers.. they passed through your defense unnoticed")



This also introduces an interesting issue in military numbers.

Tiberiam always had a sort rule of "mor guns, mor power." A rule that I wanted to change... although with little effort. How about... if we took legitimate agreement to... erm... make the numbers a bit more reasonable in the new RP? Since we are starting system fresh, we can dictate the new legacy of RPers. I mean... I am all for having 100 destroyers and such, but having 75 aircraft carriers seems... a bit far-fetched. 100 Submarine cruisers... yes... but 30 submerged weapons platform (nuclear subs)? Not so much. 150 fighters? Sure. 100 bombers? Go for it. 100 stealth fighter/bombers... not so much.

I also believe that it is high time that we set the line that better guns = better power. More expensive, developed weapons should win over fictional numbers made by the owners of the country. I mean... any number of old tanks from WWI could NEVER defeat the might of Abrams. I doubt that no amount of fighters could match march speed of stealth fighters. And now... ever new technologies are coming in. The domestic RP of developing new weapons should be encouraged...

I won't make a law over this... just an agreement amongst the Tiberiam oldies to say that it seems like a legit idea. I wanted to set an unspoken agreement... like definition of what is superweapon, and what makes a better military. Maybe if these factors are set... we might not even need an expansive resource allocation bills... just sayin...

Europe and South Korea might not have many fighters, but just take a gander at the arsenal of Russian, Israeli, Chinese and North American militaries.

No.

Rubber bands should be considered as super weapons. Have you ever gotten hit with one in the eye?

I did say STEALTH fighters... not regular fighters... nonetheless, I'll take a look...

Alright, I don't know about Israel, but America... and may I remind you that America spends hefty sum on military... has 187 F-22 TOTAL... while I believe approx. 120 is operational. In China... stealth fighter hasn't even been invented... And Russia has its prototype... hard to tell how many PARK-FA that they have...

I was walking about fifth generation jet fighter in general. I guess it may be wrong for me to call them that since stealth ability is also present in fourth generation fighters... in 4.5 gen ones. Regardless, I wasn't talking about all jet fighters, but fighters that are really high-tech... gen 5, specifically stealth fighters. This is mainly because they are so expensive and used for extreme effectiveness (although we have yet to see them in major action). Theoretically (and actually, F-22 has been shown to be EXTREMELY effective in test), stealth fighters can do some serious damage without even being detected. And the bombs that they have boast not pin point... but amazing accuracy. The ability to supercruise... advanced cloaking... inside weapons depot... those things.

To tell the truth, fifth gen fighters are not really out yet. The best impression of this would be F-22. That is probably the one and only fifth gen at the moment... and it is DEADLY. That's why I am saying that we need to give developmental cycles before developing this crap...

Oh and about stealth abilities... it is possible for fourth gen to have stealth... I believe that there is F-15 variant that utilizes stealth... but they are not as good as fully stealth gen5. They need to be repainted with stealth paint before every launch, and they are not as stealthy as F-22. It seems logical that gen5 fighters (which... it seems like everyone has by the looks of how many fighters can bomb without being detected...) is something of a superweapon on its own. In the terminology is Supreme Commander... sort of minor experimental instead of major experimental. And... it should be given such weight.



speaking of, I am not only talking about stealth fighters here... what about military size agreements? Yes? No? Maybe so?

I'm not sure why you don't think China has any. China has one of the largest and most advanced militaries in the world (in fact, they just overtook the United States in recent years for the largest and best equipped navy). Combined with it's secretive nature, there probably isn't a single up-to-date or accurate list of it's current arsenal. Just be sure that it won't be insignificant, by any means.

Israel has possibly the best airforce in the entire world. They are world renowned for the training and capability of it's pilots, and they make sure to keep their aircraft technology cutting edge.

And more to the point, stealth fighters would more accurately be vehicles as opposed to weapons. It is the bombs that these vehicles carry, and not the vehicles themselves, which are weapons. What would constitute a "superweapon" depends on what the aircraft is carrying, as opposed to the aircraft itself. And while it may be able to deliver a payload without detection, stealth fighters tend to be slower and much less maneuverable then other aircraft to decrease it's infrared signature. A stealth fighter would be no match for a modern jet fighter in a dogfight, for instance.

And even Canada has stealth fighters (or will have them, soon). In fact, Canada recently purchased several at enormous cost, much to the chagrin and public backlash of the taxpayers. It was something of a political scandal that led to the Prime Minister being found in contempt of parliament, and triggered an election earlier this year (his party won a majority, up from a previous minority government). It cost so much that the taxpayers were furious at the stated cost of the purchase, but it was later discovered that he lied about the price and it was actually about six times more expensive, which is what led to the "contempt of parliament" finding.

Well...
I am not dismissing China, but her own stealth fighter... 5thgen... are still at works (J-20, right?), and they are not quite up to speed with F-20.

And... erm... as much as I agree with you that in a dogfight, more maneuverable side might be conventional fighters... the air-to-air missiles has made it so that stealth fighters can pick off conventional fighters before they strike. In other words, before dogfight begins (and we are assuming that pilots of both sides are ace dogfighters), quite a bit of fighters will be either picked off or the formation of fighters will be completely gone by the time that missiles roams by. Nowadays, the radar-guided or laser-guided air-to-air missiles are so accurate that it is hard to not get hit by them... and the missiles have become steadily fast over the years. If the pilot of the fighters do not know that the adversary is approaching... (and most cases, they won't notice stealth fighters from such a distance)... well, before dogfight begins things are really not looking good for the fighter fleet.

This is, of course, assuming that stealth fighters even want to engage conventional fighters. Conventional fighters can fight these in a dogfight, like you said. It isn't like the country will ONLY have 5gen stealth fighters. Rather, they will have both... with stealth fighters working as more specialized role of picking off high-priority targets like strategic bombers and such. In a straight-up dogfight, most likely fighters will engage fighters... I guess same strategy goes for Oscal. In straight-up battle, pack of submarine cruisers will always win a stealth submarine because of maneuverability... and numbers because of cheap cost. That is why stealth subs are used for more clandestine missions, like escorting high-profile sabotage mission or bombing certain locations without being seen. In a battle, this is why I escort them with submarine cruisers... and destroyers. The strategic use for them is different.

Regardless, I would have to say that yes, Israel has powerful airforce and yes China has amazing military. However, in terms of 5gen stealth fighters, the only one currently battle-tested is F-20. The ones coming are Jian-20 (Chinese), F-35 Lightning (US), and PARK-FA (Russian). There are more planned, but none close to being done besides those.

I personally dunno about speed... but it is proven that F-35 (current prototype) is slower than Eurofighter Typhoon... which is currently fastest quasi-stealth fighter in the world (Mark 3.5 or something). Still, I must say that stealth technology itself should constitute itself into superweapon status...



Lol... I am talking in circles. Let me clarify: I thought that stealth, 5gen fighter jets SHOULD be classified as "superweapons" because of following reasons:
1. The developmental cost of this vehicle is ridiculous
2. It IS of weapon origin... it isn't a civilian vehicle...
3. Not many nations in the world has capability of developing one (Three at the most... while others are developing capabilities to do so) (doesn't mean that these can be sold around the world... but in Tiberiam, that SHOULD be RPed anyways)
4. Although in a straight battle conventional fighters WILL be better... it is because conventional fighter is almost a hard-counter for stealth fighters in dogfights. Sort of like rock-paper-scissors... And in the case of undetected preemptive strike, stealth fighters can win as well.



Those are my points. Sorry that I ranted ^^

Oscalantine wrote:

It isn't anything serious... just a discussion... well, discussion rolled in with a suggestion.

I was watching documentary on these little awesome fighters. They are AMAZING... and with that amazement... ridiculous cost. It seems like stealth fighters are pretty small in number and pretty high in cost... not to mention development. Just for numbers sake... the total number of the latest model of Euro Fighter (European stealth fighter... although less stealthy than versatile fighter) ever made thus far is 270 units... give or take tens. That's small... considering how many nations that EU has. It is also good to note that Korea has plans for purchasing 60 stealth fighters... apparently spending 8.2조원, which is 8.2 billion dollars. And that is largest purchase deal in Korean history.

Talk about WOW. The cost of these critters are monstrous! And imagine developing one for it. Not to mention... only three LEGITIMATE factions are capable of its construction... the US, EU, and Russia. China has yet revealed its... so for all we know it isn't even legit... and Japs are still developing theirs. Only the biggest and the baddest military power (or economic power in the case of EU... but Europe has history of militarization) was able to develop theirs...

Now, I KNOW that stealth SUBMARINE (so beloved SS the Naughty One ^^) is a superweapon. That has never been the question... adding stealth to even stealthier sumarines. Not to mention my new submersible aircraft carrier is another one... with stealth capability. But I did not think about this until now... stealth technology in general should not be underestimated...


So I wanted to know... in the new Tiberiam, should we set stealth fighters as superweapon?

Oh and my definition of superweapon for Tiberiam is this:

a weapon that MUST be developed IN ROLEPLAY. A weapon system that takes awhile to develop and long time to construct. It isn't a weapon that you start out with. It gives HUGE advantage to your adversaries, and it is a fearful symbol of your military technology and power. The technology itself is much-guarded secret, and it is envy of nations.

Many of our current superweapons fits this bill. (Nuclear weapons, Chemical weapons, Stealth subs, etc.) I also think that Stealth Fighters fits this bill as well. Another reason why I wanted to set this is so that people don't start out with stealth bombers... (I don't want people to go... "oh I have stealth tech on ALL my bombers.. they passed through your defense unnoticed")



This also introduces an interesting issue in military numbers.

Tiberiam always had a sort rule of "mor guns, mor power." A rule that I wanted to change... although with little effort. How about... if we took legitimate agreement to... erm... make the numbers a bit more reasonable in the new RP? Since we are starting system fresh, we can dictate the new legacy of RPers. I mean... I am all for having 100 destroyers and such, but having 75 aircraft carriers seems... a bit far-fetched. 100 Submarine cruisers... yes... but 30 submerged weapons platform (nuclear subs)? Not so much. 150 fighters? Sure. 100 bombers? Go for it. 100 stealth fighter/bombers... not so much.

I also believe that it is high time that we set the line that better guns = better power. More expensive, developed weapons should win over fictional numbers made by the owners of the country. I mean... any number of old tanks from WWI could NEVER defeat the might of Abrams. I doubt that no amount of fighters could match march speed of stealth fighters. And now... ever new technologies are coming in. The domestic RP of developing new weapons should be encouraged...

I won't make a law over this... just an agreement amongst the Tiberiam oldies to say that it seems like a legit idea. I wanted to set an unspoken agreement... like definition of what is superweapon, and what makes a better military. Maybe if these factors are set... we might not even need an expansive resource allocation bills... just sayin...

Are you on drugs?

Rasvidi wrote:

Israel has possibly the best airforce in the entire world. They are world renowned for the training and capability of it's pilots, and they make sure to keep their aircraft technology cutting edge.

While Israel has a totally kick-ass air force, (Just ask Saddam; they were the bane of his existence until the US turned on him.) the US has absolute domination. The USAF is undoubtedly the best AF in the world. The US Navy is the #2 AF in the world. Israel still kicks ass, but America has the world's military power by the balls.

I agree that stealth fighter deserve to be considered super weapons. Just look at the absurdly horrendous cost of them. That goes for the B-2 also.

erm.... E, what is this about submersible aircraft carrier that you hated or loved so much about??? It isn't anything new -.-

Oh. It does exist. I imagined a hybrid submarine-Gerald R. Ford aircraft carrier when you mentioned the notion.

Well...

Submersible aircraft carrier... is more like nuclear submarine with specialized focus on launching planes. Remember what we discussed? Basically it is my Massive "Emoticon" class submarines (roughly the size of Soviet's Typhoon class submarines) with nuclear reactor that specializes in launching AAXII-b drones. It launches it diagonally using its three drone-specific launches in the "nose" of the ship. As long as the carrier is above certain waterlevel, it can be launched while in water, and the carrier can submerge further in. It has one smaller drone-submarine for folding the aircraft once it "lands" on water and carry it to the carrier to be reloaded... although keep in mind that ONLY the carrier is stealth-treated so everything else will be shown. ^^

But yes, it is submersible, and yes, it is aircraft carrier. Just that the flying is launching and landing is pretty much out of question. But it is indeed an aircraft carrier of its kind ^^

Well in my mind a superweapon would be something like a nuclear weapon. The scale of destruction for a stealth fighter simply doesn't compare to other horrors humanity can unleash on eachother.

EDIT: If someone weaponized smallpox, for example. That would be a superweapon.

Smallpox was unintentionally weaponized. Wiping out over 90% of the population of the Americas was the primary reason Europe came to dominate the New World. It ain't hard to conquer a vacant ghost town, which were literally EVERYWHERE.

Although nukes are the quintessential superweapon, I believe everyone should be given free access to them. It's hardly a new technology. The modern superweapon status in the nuclear department should arise in creating an arsenal to be truly feared. One Hiroshima-grade dirty bomb won't trike fear into your enemies. A few thousand ICBM's will.

Well...

Superweapon doesn't have to mean weapon of mass destruction. I think of superweapon more along the lines of weapon systems (vehicles, explosives, etc.) that can either deter war or will be the prime target. It just happens that most superweapons fit the category of WMD.

I guess maybe we should rename the terminology to "Mega Weapons" or something... in my opinion, Panzer would've been called superweapon, and that's not the case. Any unique terminology.

Holy Edesu SocialistState wrote:

Smallpox was unintentionally weaponized. Wiping out over 90% of the population of the Americas was the primary reason Europe came to dominate the New World. It ain't hard to conquer a vacant ghost town, which were literally EVERYWHERE.

It wasn't so unintentional. During the French and Indian War, settlers intentionally offered hospital blankets and clothes infected with smallpox to native dignitaries that were trying to negotiate for peace. The dignitaries would return to their villages with the "gifts" and would quickly die.

Rasvidi wrote:

Holy Edesu SocialistState wrote:

Smallpox was unintentionally weaponized. Wiping out over 90% of the population of the Americas was the primary reason Europe came to dominate the New World. It ain't hard to conquer a vacant ghost town, which were literally EVERYWHERE.

It wasn't so unintentional. During the French and Indian War, settlers intentionally offered hospital blankets and clothes infected with smallpox to native dignitaries that were trying to negotiate for peace. The dignitaries would return to their villages with the "gifts" and would quickly die.

True. But the biggest series of epidemics in the Americas was definitely what happened immediately following initial European colonization. By biggest I mean most significant.

Hmmm... this thread sort of strayed off...

I would like to revitalize the discussion of weapons here... since RP is closing.

So we should redefine my term "superweapons" to something like "Omega Military Constructs" or... OMC. How about that? It will include superweapons and military vehicles that aren't really a weapon.

The main purpose of me making them is because... well, we have all grown responsible for it, but there comes a time when some random country whips out a stealth fighter that I didn't know that the country had and it freaks me out. There are other times when you don't assume a country to have a nuclear weapon and they somehow pulls it out of their hat. So I wanted OMC established so that construction of these weapons/vehicles will be somewhat RPed (and thus notified beforehand) before it is used... this will have few effects in the RP: 1) it will ensure that there are always something to post in domestic thread and 2) it will sort of act as a deterrent to reckless warring. And... construction and mobilization of these military constructs are so massive that it will probably SHOW that you are making it.

So here's my list of OMC so far:

aircraft carrier
submerged aircraft carrier ( ^^ because I love myself)
stealth bomber/fighter/... anything stealth (there are even stealth ships... and stealth vehicles are in the works)
supercruise-capable hypersonic aircrafts
nuclear submarines
UAVS (or anything uber-automated)
Nuclear Weapons (bombs and missiles but "suitcase bombs" are exception to this rule)
Mid to Long range ballistic missiles (some ICBMs and LRBMs are actually non-nuclear)
Bio or Chemical weapons (of course you can whip some out in the house-made lab if you are a terrorist... but hey, you will need a full institute to create something as effective as anthrax)
Orbital weapons (I doubt ANY country has capability to make this [unless Isis comes back], but I believe that this is well-within necessary to put it in there)
Optical technology (in case Oscal II comes here with laser technologies ^^)


... I think that is all.

I am not saying that OMC is a technology that we cannot have. Some are not really that expensive... like ballistic missiles or UAVS. Others... astronomical. However, these are ALL gamechangers in the war. Presence of these weapons can make or break wars. So... I thought that we just agree that these weapons will be RPed before we use them.


That and some kind of deterrent from making more than 20 aircraft carriers. Where do you store all those things anyways? ^^ (personally, I have to wonder where did I store all those 25 aircraft carriers that I SUPPOSEDLY had... )

25 aircraftcarriers? Bullshit.

Some of these things should be able to be assumed. If you country has a militaristic history, it should be able to have a large nuclear arsenal no-questions. The HESS has been absolutely terrified of the nigh invasion for over a century; of course it a huge nuke arsenal. You don't need to be Rasvidi to have one.

Stealth fighters/bombers are different. We all know Ras has them; his military budget is out of control. Edes getting a few, however, would be a major breakthrough.

Nope, I am utterly against any nation, regardless of background, having any superweapon of any classification based purely on assumption.

That would quickly result in wars of "I SEND 100000 NUKES TO YOU", "O YA WELL I SEND 234235346464 TO YOU"

I think there needs to be a strict guideline requiring roleplay of a nation's development and production of any superweapon, with a minimum time for production of each individual weapon based on factors such as education, industry and military budget.

I agree completely with you, Ras. What I am saying is that modern militaristic nations need not RP any development of atomic theory. They can have that for free. The development of the arsenal, however, definitely needs RP. The same goes for chemical and biological weapons. I could totally use those, but I never will. Morality!

So... we are in agreement that OMC should be constrained to development-basis acquisition, right?

And don't worry about existing technology... I won't make Ras re-invent the stealth flight or E restart atomic theory. Everything thus far in the domestic posts counts, but any newer player or any old player wanting new technology should develop for it... at least that is what I am thinking.

Oscalantine wrote:

So... we are in agreement that OMC should be constrained to development-basis acquisition, right?

And don't worry about existing technology... I won't make Ras re-invent the stealth flight or E restart atomic theory. Everything thus far in the domestic posts counts, but any newer player or any old player wanting new technology should develop for it... at least that is what I am thinking.

Done.
/thread