Board of Neo Tiberiam

Dear fellow members of Tiberiam:

As I have been Secretary of Culture for quite a while, it has been my HONOR to serve you and my own needs in this beautiful region. I have seen the heights and downs of this region's RPing community, and I must say that I have gotten to know what diplomatic RP is all about quite a bit.

It has been my recent ambition to restart the Roleplaying field. The excuses are many, but I shall go straight to the point: I simply believe that restart button would be beneficial to all. I believe that the reasoning is simple... we just had WAY too many countries go down in anarchy... and the relations and power balance that made Tiberiam Roleplay Oh SO interesting is no longer there. I also think that the new rules that the RP will have will also need to be implemented fresh, if you know what I mean.




Now, being the dictator I am, I SHOULD get these done myself. HOWEVER... I don't want to be perceived as a dictator... rather, I would much like to be seen as some sort of permanent office in a democratic body. SO... I am creating a puppet committee... I mean a board to collect your ideas for new map.

I would like to say that EVERYONE's OPINIONS will carry the same weight. That being said, the most contributing member will DEFINITELY have the most saying, since... well, you add up the number of things he/she will say and it will come down to him having more time to compromise a choice than others.

I would also like to say that ANY new members to Roleplay should also join in. You guys will be in the RPs in the future, so mind as well as have your two cents thrown.





So... here is agenda that the board will pursue

• Resource Allocation: THIS will NOT be discussed until a new map is made.
  
• Realistic Plot division/fairness: We can start discussing this RIGHT away. The fairness of the plots are HARDLY in reality in real world, but it makes logical sense to discuss how we should divvy up the plots.
  
• Realistic Resources and their uses: Just that. We had SEVERAL resources (beryl, marble, obsidian, etc.) that JUST wasn't even wanted... let alone traded... and others were just too much in demand (oil, uranium, etc.). While this is realistic in nature, I want to re-define all resources and their uses.
  
• Land//Population Ratio: For awhile, this has been bugging me. I wish to set a certain ground rule for this... I know this isn't particularly perfectly set in stone, but I had hard time believing a country in arctic, mountainous zone has BILLIONS of population crammed up there. MEANWHILE, certain countries had overpopulation problems... although I over-exaggerated when Isis had so many population that there won't be a room to fit more in the borders ^^. Not only that, I also wanted to set certain kind of "population control" to nations with overzealous nature. I know if you have billions of RP people you SHOULD be marching to get more land. HOWEVER, country of few million doesn't seem to have the right reason to start running down the borders. All in all, this is more of an balance issue than anything... I mean, there are exceptions in the real world... but setting base balance should be necessary to prevent weird phenomenon happening everywhere.
  
• Terrain Naming: We can start this off right away. I NEVER liked having ZERO terrain names... and while we can re-name our own region, NO ONE seems to be interested... including me. So I'm going to preset some of the names of the map... like mountains, plains, desert, etc. I always LOVED to have some kind of naming things, like Battle of Gobi Desert or something (okay, Gobi Desert NEVER had a single major war... but hey, it does sound cool ^^)
  
• Lore Creation: We can... or we cannot. It seems like since we are restarting, if you want you can pitch into the lore... previous alliances, good-relations... of course, we will be expanding on the lore all the time, as more people join in and I'm planning on making this some kind of requirement to get into HRPer status. So... start spewing out each country's lores and we will have something cool to work with!
  

Current Ideas thrown:

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[reserved for future uses]

Just a friendly reminder that if the government is being scrapped, your position within that government is for the time being kind of meaningless That goes for me and Donkholme and EEE and anyone else with any sort of government position, as well. We're more or less in a state of organized anarchy at the moment.

Anyways, to address your points;

I have actually thought about scrapping the plot system. I just find it too unrealistic and a bit time consuming, and as pointed out earlier in some other thread, it's just a huge pain to keep it up-to-date and follow every single roleplay development. Instead, I think we should follow the model set out in the real world; maps today adhere more or less to what borders the UN recognizes or are otherwise de facto recognized by the international community. Obviously, however, this does not reflect that actual claims or de jure borders that exist in the world. For example, China and India have several conflicted borders as do many other nations (conflicted borders are usually displayed with the commonly recognized international border being displayed with a dotted line, a system that I very much like). I think a new system should work with a take-what-you-can system, with realistic maintenance costs levied on the resources, economy, manpower, etc. of a nation. For example, moutainous terrain could cost much more "maintenance" in terms of labour and military and economic output to maintain. If a country is too poor, too underpopulated or otherwise too weak to hold on to a certain amount of territory, that would be the preventing factor as opposed to three equally sized plots, which is simply not realistic. The map updates would be limited to adding dots to disputed or poorly recognized borders, and would only change once it becomes clear that the international community sees a change (regardless if a minority of nations do not recognize the change, including the affected nation). The map would then just function as an international atlas, and individual national maps or territorial claims would be found in a nation's database (you could draw your own borders if you don't agree with the international map).

As for resources, I agree that there are too many and some of them are kind of frivolous. Instead, I think we should agree upon and research some basic resources that, first of all, are not common or ubiquitous across the globe. If a resource can be found everywhere, even if only in varying quantities, there's no use in marking it on the map. Resource like Oil, Uranium, Diamonds, etc. are found only in limited quantities in the world (Uranium for example, is found in mineable quantities mostly in Nigeria, Australia, Russia and Canada). Secondly, it needs to have relatively limited supply that can't always meet demand. This ensures that the resource is actively traded and sought after in roleplay, and doesn't just waste space on the map. This would include most non-renewable resources like gas, oil, uranium, coal, etc. Things like lumber and fresh water, while limited in some places, are more or less available anywhere on the planet. Even in the desert, the water table can be accessed with deep enough wells, and there are trees suitable for lumber in pretty much every climate (exceptions being true desert and arctic/antarctic climates). Third, they need to involve industries or economies directly relevant to roleplay. This means the resources must play a fundamental or significant role in things like weapons/warfare, technology, construction, fuel, currency, etc. in an easy to understand and direct manner.

As for population/land ratio, in reality there seems to be a very low correlation between territory size and overcrowding. Overcrowding only seems to occur in very local areas, such as urban centers; even in China, the east coast still has plenty of open countryside. However, the largest and most densely populated city isn't even in Asia; it's in Mexico, more specifically Mexico City. The planet is simply too big for 6 billion people to cause any serious overcrowding; overcrowding seems to be more through choice then by limitations of the planet. Canada and Russia are two of the geographically largest nations on Earth and indeed rank amongst the largest in history; however, both have relatively low populations and amongst the lowest population densities. Likewise, the most densely populated countries tend to be microstates such as Singapore, Monaco, Vatican City, etc. where the population is constrained more by borders then by the land. I think we should instead determine maximum population density based on climate or terrain in a specific area then in overall land size. Even if the population is greater then the food output in a country, countries simply buy the extra food they need from nations like Canada that have lots of arable land but much smaller populations to feed. Sometimes this can cause famines in economically poor countries with poor terrain, but in general globalization is steadily eliminating these kinda of famines (the amount of people dying from malnutrition or starvation has more then halved since the beginning of the 20th century, despite the population increasing sixfold). So I think the size of a nation, even with a billion people, is relatively unimportant (within reason). It's more the size of the cities located on what type of terrain.

As for naming terrain, if nobody else is up for it, I volunteer for the duty to name it all, if not help others who would like to do some naming. If you'd like to name it differently after you occupy the terrain, record the difference in your national database and the international map will be changed if the international community begins to use the new designation over the old one.

I think Rasvidi has the right idea. The plot system is a basic system which does not correspond well to actual national activity. I reiterate that resources need to be granted much more sparingly. The only reason gold is valuable is because it's rare. The same goes for oil and uranium when one factors in the immense demand.

Gold is actually a bit of an enigma; it is actually fairly common element in the Earth's crust and is actually more common than less valuable elements like Silver (most gold actually contains about 10-20% silver). It's a prime example of how value is purely subjective and abstract in concept. Even the Oceans have gold in them (about 15,000 tons of gold in total), and some microbes even produce gold as a byproduct or waste product, potentially allowing gold to be "farmed" using these organisms.

It's value is more due to human infatuation with it, as opposed to any rarity or scarcity of supply. It is also easy to melt and mould, making it ideal for use in a currency system or for the production of jewelry. However, it's low melting point makes it softer then other metals and most people can bend gold with their bare hands, making them impractical if not completely useless as weapons or armour.

Alright, I'll be answering bit by bit...

Okay, Ras's idea on plots...
Hmmm... interesting concept. You have thought of things...
But this will ensure that EVERYONE at least knows how to paint... something that MIGHT not be entirely enticing to others... but then again, maybe our RP realm need SOME deterrence to ensure that quick-leavers don't set foot here. Of course, this is HEAVILY favoring powerful nations, but that's reality of it as well.
I'm down to the idea, but I dunno how you can enforce it... While sounds awesome... there are a lot of job for you as well. You have to compile EVERY database's interpretation of maps into one LARGE ASS map, which MUST be a chore. Plot system isn't exactly perfect, but it is the simplest system... Ras, while this system is awesome, let's chew on this for awhile... can you really up for the task?

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And now about resources...

I WAS going to post something, but the forum backfired on me and I wasn't able to post... I'll post here....
Basically, I want to do the resource division of progress. What I mean is that I ASSUME that every country is either importing or mining sufficient amount of EVERY resource to satisfy their people... as in doing their normal stuff to get by. The resource deposits shown on the map is the LARGE deposit that is fit for progress, improvement, or massive mobilization.
SO... here's my idea... each "deposit" of resource on the map is equal to THREE resource points in that particular resource. Keep this idea in mind. Using this, trading can be established between countries... like you can trade one point of iron for one point of gold. These resource points will be used to... as I mentioned before... to improve.

Now, HERE is the list of improvement sections and where each resource fits in… keep in mind that I DID scrap or add some resources.

Military Resources: Used to mobilize… the more you have, the more powerful your military will be (duplicate points… i.e. three iron points… will be accepted as .5 points after first. Meaning that 3 iron points will be equated to 2 iron points [1+.5+.5])

• Iron
  
• Chrome
  
• Nickel
  
• Titanium
  
• Uranium
  
• Rubber
  

Technology Resources: Basically the technology amplifiers. Helps with building speed and innovation implementation speed. Keep in mind that the longer the project goes, the more sound the integrity of the project is. (duplicate points counts .5… same as above)

Implementation speed
• MASSIVE construction project: more than 10 years.
• Large construction project: 5~10 years
• Medium construction project: 2~5 years
• Small construction project: 1~2 years
• Wide-scale FULL implementation of invention: more than 10 years
• Partial (mostly military) implementation of invention: 2~10 years
• Specialized//Local implementation of invention: 1~2 years.


• Copper
  
• Platinum
  
• Rare Earth Metals
  
• Aluminum
  

Monetary Resources: No real purpose than to buy other resources. HOWEVER, do keep in mind that non-allied nations (military or econ) can ONLY trade using monetary resources as medium. Also keep in mind that NPCs ONLY accept monetary resource. (duplicate points receive FULL credit). All points yield EQUAL monetary points… as in point of silver is equal to point of gold… think of it as 500 pounds of gold per monetary point to 1 ton of silver per monetary point.

• Gold: received as 7 points per deposit
  
• Silver: received as 4 points per deposit
  
• Diamond: received as 10 points per deposit
  
• Beryl: received as 2 points per deposit
  
• Tobacco: received as 3 points per deposit
  

AWESOME Resources: They are awesome because they can be used for ALL types of points. Depending on your situation, you can delegate the points in this resource deposit to ONE sector of resource PER RL MONTH. This is to prevent abuse in these resources. Remember that the duplicator function works should you go for tech or military resources, and that each deposit yields THREE points unless monetary, which is stated below.

• Timber: received as 2 points per deposit ($$ only)
  
• Silk: received as 2 points per deposit ($$)
  
• Fertile Plain: received as 3 points per deposit ($$)
  
• Petroleum: received as 6 points per deposit ($$)
  

ENVIRONMENT Resource: They have their special benefits SHOULD you use them wisely.

• Rainforest: yields NO resource points no matter what you do. However, it can be altered for TWO resource deposit for any kind. But do keep in mind that when you do, the environmental point in the world drops… and when environmental point drops under certain level, we will start to see climate change… which decreases the effectiveness of the resource deposits (from 3 to 2). Keeping a rainforest is expensive in terms of opportunities, but int’l communities won’t let you survive if you try to scrap it. Takes ENTIRE year (RP) to destroy the Rainforest Completely.
  
• Swampy Land: yields NO resource points no matter what you do. However, it can be altered for THREE petroleum deposits. But destroying swampy land causes environmental point in the world to drop. Takes TWO years (RP) to destroy the Swampy Land completely.
  
• Polar Ice Cap: yields NO resource points no matter what you do. However, it can be altered for FOUR metalloid deposits of any kind. But do keep in mind that should do you so, it decreases the environmental points of entire world. Takes THREE years (RP) to destroy the Polar Ice Cap completely.
  

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‘Aight, I shall concede with the landmass//population Idea. However, it wasn’t quite off the mark… sometimes, a billion population cannot fit into size of Spain. (not that there was any like that.)

As for terrain… we’ll start naming as SOON as the map is made. I cannot start pulling crap out of my @$$ when there is nothing to base it upon… but at least we know we can rely on you, Ras! ^^\



How's that... thoughts? comments? concerns?

Resources.

It would make everyone's day a whole lot easier to lump resources by type instead of having to fool with "Oh, I ran out of xyz ore. Can I buy some?"

FOOD RESOURCES
(Grain, Fruits, Vegetables, Cattle, Pork, Deer, Fish, etc.)

WEAPONS RESOURCES
(Guns, Tanks, Ammunition, Helicopters, etc. And the minerals needed to make them- steel, iron, etc.)

TECHNOLOGY RESOURCES
(Computers, Cars, Spy Devices, Black boxes for planes, Software, Hardware, etc)

PRECIOUS METALS (maybe)
(Diamond, Topaz, Ruby, Sapphire, Emerald, Pearl, etc.)

NO, you do not and cannot buy the items separately. Just say "I need some Weapons Resources."

Nobody is deleting anyone's posts, calm down the both of you and get along.

Erm... Ras...

It is practice that I do for everyone who starts a long debate, including mine... remember what I do in OOC threads or office of SoC? I delete the post and take it over to the TG or PM. That's how I have always done them, remember?

Alright. Revitalizing this thread.


Firstly, after reading over the debate with a cool head, I realized my own mistake. If Donk comes back after our little debate, I got to apologize to him... can someone remind me ^^

Upon reading Donk's idea once more, I get his validity. And I guess I am also to blame for unoriginality and bland set of ideas. To be frank, it is hard to make up new ideas anymore... it just feels like every good ones are already made somewhere.

I will still hold true to the belief that Donk's idea of rolling all the resources into neat pockets seems like it is too mechanizing... but he is in the right track. I just don't like making the world into boxes, I guess. If everything is in neat box-like fashion... sure it will make the RP simpler, but it seems like it is also going to lose that sense of accomplishment of obtaining certain resources. I mean, look, we ALL had some kind of sense of PRIDE of having certain resources that were highly valuable... and it seemed like painstaking war posts through debates and rage quits was worth to get that portion of the map with that resource on it. Seriously... why else would we have went to basically World War situation with oil? Even the most civil societies have went to war in Tiberiam over this damn resource... and I personally doubt that such things will happen under Donk's pure system.

But I have to repeat, he seemed like he was in the right track. Contrary to our debate, I have come to like the idea quite a bit. And I have to openly apologize to Donk here... I WAS indeed wrong... I should not have judged the book (or in this case, an idea) by its cover... I guess I JUST HATE EREPUBLIK'S NEW ECONOMY... that is seriously a load of bull. I am starting to think that there can be a compromise... a combination of both mine and Donk's idea...


Here's what I am thinking right now. If we had actual resources AND the packaged resources? The whole "Weapon Resources" seems like a grand idea in a way that it can effectively measure the military strength of the nation. Technology Resources seems to be the thing that can help us understand just HOW fast a nation is developing. And Food Resource seems to be something that will allow us to understand whether the nation is starving or not. In other words, Donk's idea allows us to make simple judgement to complex ideas. Why did I never thought of this before?! ^^;

So... to explain what I said in simple sentence... here's examples

If Country A had 55 Weapons Resources while Country B had 20 Weapons Resources, Country A will MOST LIKELY win in an OPEN WAR. Now given, in a skirmish, anything is possible. However, in the macro view of war, unless some kind of military genius is around, frontal assault will lean towards Country A's favor. This can help planning the war threads a whole lot easier... not only that, we can settle disputes between who will win the war a lot quicker.

If Country A has 10 Technology Resources while Country B has 100 Technology Resources, Country B probably has better implementation of technology. Now given, Country A could have cooler stuff than Country B, like maybe pigoil. But Country B will be able to implement his/her technology... say commercial supersonic aircraft... a lot quicker. Instead of relying on my random judgment on how long this will take, now we can have some kind of formula to judge this.

If Country C has 20 Food Resources while having over 2 billion population, we can know that there is SEVERE food shortage. We can make a simple equation to determine just how much food resources the country needs in order to not starve. Any more can be traded.



I think these are REVOLUTIONARY ideas that we should implement into our next season of Roleplay... I should get started on making something for this right away.

However... I believe that I cannot take Donk's idea purely. Again, this is my bias towards eRepublik and its econ system... but also has to do with the excitement of the RP. Weapon Resource doesn't sound as attractive as getting Titanium deposit, you know ^^.

But I think I have a space for this. Sure, these resource packages WILL have something to do with raw resource deposits, but only partially. I believe that THIS can be the final goods of the resources. It will also include the domestic posts and international treaties. It will include the Roleplaying aspect, making this resource more flexible than raw resources. Not to mention that every resource will function differently... like Titanium will give more Weapons Resource than Iron Resource. This can be also a good reason for RPing domestic development. All in all, this all sounds like a GRAND idea that we should implement.

Of course, there are plenty of math to go through. However, I believe that I have finally found something that can help Tiberiam Resource management / key foundational Roleplaying a better deal. Oh and for people that are concerned about complexity of this issue... I'm planning on making this basically... "You don't need to know... we will take care of it. BUT if you do it, cudos for you!" Kind of deal. Like knowing the law in the country. You can live without knowing all the laws in the lawbook, but if you know them, you can defend yourself in the court. I'll open the equations up for discussion until the implementation (once I finish) and afterwards, it will be up to SoC and TCS to see this through.


Whoa... I realized that TCS has gotten into quite a big responsibility squad... gotta keep checklist to ensure that I keep everything in line....

Tiberiam Culture Squad...
Moderates Database
Moderates Innovations
Moderates Resource Equations

It has basically became a "mini SoC" position... huh... basically all the deskjob of SoC... Hmmm... I may just need to scrap some of the responsibilities off so that it is easier... I bet you I can live without TCS moderating Databases and Innovations... so TCS will probably only for reporting in Resource Equations.

So much work to do... gotta finish the HRP rule so I can work on this....

Thank you for apologising.

I do agree to your compromise. Wrapping up all of the resources into a few categories would be "too" simple. But it can be used for very basic overviews of a nation or land's resources- like a database listing.
The thing to do if we want to implement this kind of "Overview of Resources" feature would be determine how many of each individual resource together sums into 1 Resource block.

Here's the data for the categories on eRepublik (because yes, I took this "Resource Material" idea from there):
These are in order from smallest resource to largest. The largest produces more RMs than the others.
Food Resource Materials: Grain, Fruit, Fishery, Cattle, Hunting (Deer)
Weapons Resource Materials: Iron, Oil, Aluminum, Saltpeter, Rubber

Tyty for that, makes me feel a lot better knowing that you liked my idea and accepted my apology.

NOW, back to the discussion...

We don't have saltpeter, but other places in weapons resource materials are there. Not to mention that there are other resources like Chrome, Nickel, and Titanium that can also be included in this particular section. we will have to change this up a bit... I don't like the idea that Oil is less important than Rubber... not to mention we don't have Saltpeter... that COULD be one of our new resources. It seems like it is vital for all ballistic weapons... and apart from Oscal, who makes extensive use of thermal lasers, and Isis, who has started development of kinetic weapons platforms... ballistics is vital for all weapons production. I'll have to think about that.

As for food, I am thinking that EVERYONE has something like this. The basic farming should be in every country anyways, so I say let's leave that particular material section to purely domestic Roleplay. HOWEVER, we DO have "Fertile Plains" coming into terrain section. So I guess that is one and only resource (besides maybe sugar if I decide to add that back in) that will make it into the food resource. This will have to be purely roleplayed... I mean, come'on. Plantations don't spring from the ground... someone has to make them ^^

Technological materials seems to be the hardest because you have to distinguish from military. I know in reality this isn't the case, but I don't want military superpower to ALSO have technological advantage in Roleplay. Either I would have to make raw resource's portion in the technological material section small or think of a way to divide the resources between the two resource materials... for the sake of fairness.


All in all, I think that when it comes to "Materials," I would have to say that roleplaying will have to play a larger part than raw resources themselves (maybe except in military, where THAT is basically judging how much you can mass-produce during wartime). What is your two cents?

I approve of the new-found complexity in resources. I also demand the most fertile soil.

Hmm, it seems everyone is on board for this so I say implement it.

However, personally I am concerned for the complexity. I *do* like this, but I think the math might be a little too complex or seemingly daunting for new players. Simplicity would help keep more people around; however I could just be underestimating people, which I have a tendency to do (read: I can be an arrogant prick).

I'm also having trouble with the "technology resource" concept; in my mind, technology resource is more a people resource then anything else. Like scientists, researchers, think tanks, etc. because basically every conventional resource is a "technology" resource used in some form of technology. Technological development comes more out of what is in your mind, as opposed to a mine. I think this should be based more on a nation's education budget, rather then tied to resources.

Ah...

Lol, don't get your head in a knot, Ras, I got your concern before and I'm trying to implement those factors.

As for complexity. I have to say that it won't be for new players. New players would simply need to know two simple line:

"More resources, the better. More news posts, the better."

I'll be taking care of the rest... or rather, SoC and TCS (Tiberiam Culture Squad) will be taking care of the rest. They don't need to figure out what post will account to what kind of impact or what kind of resource will contribute to what... that will be figured out by a system of experienced roleplayers and RP moderating group. For more experienced players, you can abuse the system by trying to take the most out of it... like getting precise resources that will benefit you the most or posting JUST enough for you to get the next level of military goodies.


As for technological resources... I DID take into account of geniuses. Technological resources isn't for INVENTING new technology. It is IMPLEMENTING the existing technology into the society. It will take... a good few years at the very least to get the system implemented in the major cities at the very least. For mass consumption, it probably takes longer. Technological resources, like Copper, etc. is for making this happen.... not for inventing resources. It tells just HOW quickly you can do this ^^.

So for inventing new innovations? Hmmm... it doesn't have ANY restricting besides the imagination of the RPers in the Desk of Patents and Innovations. I realize that new inventions... doesn't account for national education. Because birth of genius is TOTALLY random... it isn't up for me to restrict. If there was Albert Einstein of Tiberiam that popped up in the poorest of countries, who can stop it from happening? So MAKING inventions doesn't have any restrictions... but IMPLEMENTING these inventions into wide-spread uses, that's something that we need to consider.

Quote :

If there was Albert Einstein of Tiberiam that popped up in the poorest of countries, who can stop it from happening?

The real question is what, and the answer is illiteracy. If your population can't read, they don't have a chance to read the current scientific canon and join in the progress. Education is critical.

Well, unless a country has a literacy rate of like.. zero. Great talents are found REGARDLESS of circumstances. It is just less frequently and less likely.

Another reason why I'm saying that I'm not handling inventions is because would HATE to make people follow a tech tree. That is just not fun. And it is also realistic as well. As I mentioned before, great talents cannot be stopped. Even in the case of illiteracy, it is possible. I am sorry that I'm constantly using this, but our dear ol' Albert was homeschooled until college. And I must say, education budget in most nations is geared towards UNIVERSAL education system like primary and secondary schools... not for universities. And even in universities, Albert just didn't care about studies. He worked alone and by himself... not caring about lecture. You see, great talents don't need government to help them. They figure things out on their own. And when these thinkers come up with something awesome (that would be when YOU file a patent/innovation in the SoC office forums) I cannot stop that from being invented by that nation because the education budget is ZERO.

But we can agree that a nation with a strong emphasis on education will, in the long run, produce a substantially greater level of technology.